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is Research Professor at the University of Houston Graduate College of Social Work. Her books include: The Gifts of Imperfection and Daring Greatly: How the Courage to Be Vulnerable Transforms the Way We Live, Love, Parent, and Lead.
One of TED's most popular lectures, Dr. Brené Brown offers solutions on how we can deal with vulnerability, courage, authenticity, and shame.
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I have been a dedicated listener of this show for 6 years, it has always been a source of strength and incredibly important ideas and inspirations. But when I click to read about the program interviewing Brene Brown about vulnerability--sounds amazing!--and I read that her research is inspiring millions to reconsider the way they "navigate relationships with the opposite sex," I immediately get a jolt of nausea in my stomach. I navigate relationships with people of the same sex as me, and that does not make my relationships or my vulnerability any less worth examining. It may seem like a small piece of wording to you, but to me it means that your website is emotionally unsafe for me as a gay listener, and that I must again put my protective guard up to take in your program because I can plainly read that it was not intended for me.
Sara, thanks for your note and reminding us of the importance of language. Of course we didn't intend to exclude anyone, and I apologize for making you feel excluded. If you listen to the interview, though, I think you might read this language a bit differently -- from a point of gender rather than heterosexual or homosexual partnerships/relationships. Dr. Brown says that men and women experience vulnerability differently, and have much different cultural and societal pressures placed upon them when it involves shame and vulnerability. It's not so much about sexual orientation as it is about gender.
After six years of listening to our interviews, you obviously recognize the safe space we create, even when it can be uncomfortable for those of us who think differently from our guests. I would hope that perhaps you could give us the benefit of the doubt in this case rather than implying that we're trying to exclude you. We're not. I appreciate your point though and have updated the language to avoid confusion for other listeners who may read this as you do. Thank you for reaching out to us. And, most importantly, please listen to this show; it's a good one that is worth hearing.
Thank you so much for your attention, I have now listened to the INCREDIBLE program and I see how you would have come to that wording.
Thank you for the work that you do.
I commend you for being brave enough to face your feelings of vulnerability and listen to the show nonetheless, and also for your thoughtful reply after listening. You could have just turned away because you felt uncomfortable,, but you stayed with that discomfort and continued to engage in spite of it. That's what Brene is talkin' about. Well done, sister.
Hey Sara, you should go to Dr. Brown's book signings and tell her she doesn't mention homosexuals. If she says, "I don't study homosexuals," then you say, "Well, that's convenient..." And then go ahead and let out all your jolt of nausea on her. Don't blame On Being and say they're "emotionally unsafe." And instead of putting on your protective guard, you should embrace vulnerability because if you truly listened to the interview closely you would realize that struggle and vulnerability makes the person who they really are. So, share your insights with Dr. Brown about feeling left out instead. Who knows, she may consequently include homosexuality in her next book. Personally, I enjoyed the interview and the concept of vulnerability is indeed a spiritual awakening. The interview also reminds me of an earlier program where Ms. Tippett conveyed spirituality with vulnerability & sexuality.
Sara, keep the faith. I have a 47-year-old trans son who I love and adore and ADMIRE for his faith in himself and his community. I pray every day that our communities will begin an educational path towards understanding we are equal - no difference matters - our uniqueness is what is wonderful about each of us. I was just thinking today about the generation before me and the confusion that existed when people of color became so common, a minority that continued to increase in number and be as important as the "white, straight" forefatherswho did intend for Americans to be EQUAL. (Even Jesus loved ALL as equal.) As I have discovered my language/ vocabulary and intent of statement must adapt to include all the ones I love...no matter what color, gender, inclination, etc. You are as important as the people the writer of the words was discussing....many of us just need to improve our vocabulary skills to show you that you are... gather your strengths about you....
I came here today hoping to listen to something that would keep me thinking about grace and gratitude on Thanksgiving. This has been wonderful, and has provided so much more than what I came here looking for. Brene Brown has such a gift with this subject matter and her power with storytelling speaks so directly to my own experiences around these challenging subjects. I can't thank you enough for such a profound conversation.
The last comment before the technical break about that man explaining vulnerability is dead on...My mother claimed I should do better academically than my older brother, a high school and college scholarship winner (in those days ADD and dyslexia weren't known), my wife of a quarter century asked me after my third downsizing/merger redundancy "What are you going to do about this?," and my daughter tells me that my tearing up by events (like watching a movie!) "freaks her out."
Envision these incidences as the pounding of a pile driver into a pier. Why bother showing vulnerability when such is the outcome?
I have heard Brene brown speak, and in her talk she did answer some questions about homosexuality and vulnerability. She spoke from the heart and was very clear that her belief is God loves everyone. She said that the vulnerability of being honest about something so personal as sexuality, when it isn't the accepted norm, is not easy.
Thank you for this interview!
Chris, I get it, especially the part about crying during commercials. Fortunately, my dad modeled that behavior for me and, while I was embarrassed in theaters with him as a kid, i now see him as being a profoundly courageous as a man. He was a model of personal integrity and it has given me the same freedom.
So, "why bother?". Bother because there is only one of you in this world and your authentic expression is priceless. Bother because the outcome isn't always about making others ok or happy. YOU are the very thing your daughter, your wife, your company needs, even if they don't always get it in the moment.
christopher (Chris ?) I fell in love with my husband so much more deeply when we watched a very touching movie early on and I saw him quietly take his glasses of and wipe his eyes. Tell your daughter I said she ought to look for a guy like dear old Dad. Don't let others define who you are.
I found the comment of "participating in patriarchy" somewhat unsettling.
Women don't create the gender roles men reinforce. Many women have struggled to be independent of them.
Here we are again still doing the work of their self-realization to be better partners in relationship with women, and taking the blame.
That Ms. Brown just realizes this in her " study" doesn't mean that other women did not already know what she " discovered" -
Kathleen, I hope you listened to the context in which that comment was made, too. It jolted me-- because I recognized the truth of it in myself. I struggled with and resisted gender definitions since a child growing up a religious culture that emphasized the so-callled "traditional" models for males and females (I was and remain a "tomboy"). I recognized the impact on me, and on my brothers, who struggled to meet the unrealistic demands placed on males by this division of emotional roles. Yet, as an adult and mother, I unconsciously played into many of those same expectations. Ah, not only was I a modern mother, I was a successful professional woman and community volunteer-- all the while maintaining my feminist independence. I was trying to be everything our society expects of both men and women. It took a serious life-changing illness to yank me out of that equally unrealistic scenario. I am grateful it did. But in the meantime, I'd managed to pass on the unrealistic role model I'd internalized. Yes, I was participating in patriarchy. Not only by being so fiercely independent that I let the men in my life off the hook, but by not acknowledging that they too were vulnerable and bound by roles they did not choose and felt trapped by. Only by accepting responsibiity for my being, and by willing to step out of my safety zone was I able to finally simply live my life unbound by expectations of perfection. No, life is not perfect. It isn't supposed to be. My children are making the same journey, and are wiser than I in many ways-- perhaps because they struggled through some of life's obstacles early. As for me, I still have the chronic illness, which limits me somewhat physically, yet I live a much more satisfying, productive life and feel much more fulfilled personally, because all I can do is do what I can and let the rest go.
Thank you for responding.
I never intended to imply that men are not subjected to unwanted gender roles. But since they gained the most privilege from them should't more of them work to end them? " where is the introspection, research and self awareness of their being " trapped by gender roles" by their own gender? What is their collective response to Ms. Brown's research findings?
Without question men have certainly had access to more priveledge and freedoms than women throughout history, and this was, is, and continues to be a great injustice. But maybe maybe take some time and consider the costs as well. You can't profit from injustice and walk away unscathed and I believe Brené Brown hit it on the head when she described the consequences of male vulnerability. It's cute and endearing to a point, but when it moves into the territory of exhibiting weakness or even worse powerlessness, as she said, it's repulsive.
Our experience as men confirmed this at a very early age. And in an age where 1 in 6 males are sexually abused before the age of 16, the need for vulnerability and weapons to combat shame are that much more necessary. This was a powerful message for both genders and I hope that everyone would have the same response that Brené described in herself...looking in the mirror and talking responsibility for our part in keeping our brothers and our sisters and ourselves locked up in shame.
May we all come to love with our whole hearts.
I think it is everyone's responsibility to undo the toxic effect of unwanted gender roles. I agree that thus far, women have done the vast majority of that work and men have not done enough, precisely because men benefit enormously from the arrangement. (I always like to say that patriarchy hurts everyone, but it PARTICULARLY hurts women.) However, I don't think that means that women can't participate in the system.
I loved the quote on being kind. Could you please post it with the source? Thank you. Mary
Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle. -Philo
This was such an amazingly beautiful and difficult interview to listen to. I had to pause the interview multiple times just to weep and let the gravity of what Brene was talking about sink in. Thank you for this interview, Krista and Brene. I have a deep amount of respect and admiration for the both of you.
Have listened to the 1st 35 minutes of this and am fairly dumbfounded by how relevant this is for me. Thanks On Being folks and Brene Brown. More later ...
Listening to Brené for the first time. I am a Latina visual artist working on many similar issues and along my journey I came to the same discovery in 2006. As women, we are mostly responsible for raising our own boys to become a better more vulnerably aware grown men. No shame starts at home were Moms, Grandmas and Aunts "rule".
I hadn't read the teaser about "navigating relationships" because if I had, I might not have listened to the show this morning. I would have feared that the show was going to be some lame self-help crap. Instead, listening to the show made me realize it was a lot more. As a fellow academic and high achiever who over the course of one year was diagnosed with a chronic illness, death of a mentor, illness of close family member, and the loss of a career through unethical circumstances carefully engineered by people who claimed to be on my side, I was struck by the parallels to my own life: that the only way I recovered hope and trust in myself and others and regain my belief in myself was by accepting how vulnerable I was - to physical illness, institutional politics, and fear. One of the more wonderful interviews I've heard on this show lately.
I don't listen every week, but this morning something compelled me to turn on the radio & listen to On Being. Once I started listening, it was as if someone had finally turned on the lights in the room. After more than 20 years of therapy & a place of being "stuck," Brene's observations about vulnerability went to the core of my being. I have so much reading & reflecting to do, but thank you, Brene, for showing me the way, and thank you, Krista for introducing this amazingly astute and brave woman to me. I believe that your conversation this morning got me back on a path of self-awareness after wandering a bit aimlessly over the past few years.
This interview blew my mind. In retrospect, these ideas might seem obvious, but sometimes you need a clear thinker like Brene to get you to look at your own life at the kitchen table. And a great interviewer to bring them to the fore. Thank you both so much.
The show today with Brene Brown was incredibly thought provoking. It unlocked doors for me that I believed had no keys.
Thank you for this incredible opportunity to hear someone so full of knowledge and wisdom. All she expressed was so relevant to us all.
Dr. Brown's studies and words of wisdom are a reality test for those whi think macho toughness is the only way to confront the conflicts, challenges inevitable to living a full life.
Much thanks, especially offered on the holiday we call...Thanksgiving.
Bravo to you and your staff.
Maybe a therapy session. Vulnerability? All I could think of while I listened was 'social anxieties', living with the fear of criticism or of being judged in a negative way.
This resonated with me so deeply--I feel I need to connect with Dr. Brown.
Interesting that this show pushes different buttons for many commenters. Mine was about the impact of motherhood -- you don't have to be a parent to be changed by relationship with others.
Part of patriarchy's result is to rate women's usefulness based on whether we will, can, have, or want to procreate. A few hours after listening to the show, I want to go back and listen again. Did I really hear that mothers understand something that nobody else can? Or was that my projection?
Thanks for this excellent and thought-provoking show.
I write this as a fan of On Being, and as someone who enjoyed and shared Brene Brown's TED talk on vulnerability with colleagues and friends when it was first shared on the website several weeks ago. That being said, after listening to this show, I felt compelled to point out some glaring flaws that I noticed, both in Dr. Brown's research and in the way the conversation was contextualized and directed by Mrs. Tippett.
As I listened to this conversation, I found myself increasingly perplexed by the "insights" and "wisdom" that Dr. Brown had learned through her research. I was perplexed because much of these insights seemed quite obvious to me, and so I could not understand why these realizations had apparently been so hard won or difficult to access for Dr. Brown. Eventually I realized the difference - I am a woman of color and Dr. Brown and Mrs. Tippett are not. As such, I had not been shielded from confronting feelings of shame and vulnerability in the way that Dr. Brown and Mrs. Tippett clearly have been. Moreover, because I have had to face such experiences on an ongoing basis, I have learned from a relatively early age much of the resilience and insights that were seemingly so hard won for Dr. Brown and Mrs. Tippett later in life.
Dr. Brown mentioned at one point that she realized she was in error for omitting the male experience from her research. I hope that my criticisms which follow will lead her to realize that she has also made a critical error in omitting the experiences of people of color from her research. Had she included their experiences, she may have learned far earlier than when she finally did something of the wisdom, creativity, and resilience of a people who have faced vulnerability for generations due to ongoing racism and oppression. This omission then is a very large missed opportunity for her and the public at large to engage in a more critical and nuanced examination of American culture, especially the phenomenon of white privilege and how it operates within the lives of white people and people of color.
Dr. Brown became very emotional when talking about shame and specifically pointed to the messages embedded in shame such as - "You're not good enough," "Who do you think you are?" and "You are nothing." People of color in the United States have been contending with these kinds of messages for literally hundreds of years now. Shame is absolutely nothing new to the experience of a person of color in the United States. On quite the opposite hand, resisting the ongoing onslaught of overt and covert messages designed to shame people of color is merely a normal part of our daily existence. Every single day I and every person of color must contend with subtle and overt messages about what it means to be successful or attractive in the United States, or more pertinently, who is capable of being successful and attractive. Dr. Brown mentioned standards of beauty as a source of shame for women, particularly contemporary standards of beauty, but for women of color such standards of beauty have always been unattainable. Even now it is still not the norm to see people of color depicted as successful and attractive in the media, especially if they are women of African descent with dark skin and natural hair. If Dr. Brown intends to become an expert on vulnerability and shame as it relates to the experiences of women, then she is obligated to find and watch a copy of the film "Dark Girls." I know of no other film that addresses with such brutal and heart-wrenching honesty the psychological damage inflicted upon women who are unable to attain the American standard of beauty.
In discussing how one raises resilient children, Dr. Brown mentioned that "people" often make the mistake of trying to raise their children in a bubble of safety and protection designed to shield them from more difficult realities. It is clear to me from her context that the people that she refers to are white people, as there is not a single parent of color that I know of, particularly African American, Latino, and Arabic parents, who has not had a conversation with their children about what it means for them to be a young person of color in the United States. If their children are male, such conversations start particularly early. Far from shielding their children from such unpleasant realities, people of color have recognized for generations that revealing such unpleasant realities is a necessary part of child-rearing - their children's safety and lives depend on them knowing how to operate within a white world that still fears and vilifies them. Parents of color, regardless of their wealth, have never had the means to protect their children from the uncertainty and adversity that comes with not having white skin and the white privilege it confers in the United States of America.
Dr. Brown also discussed the link between struggle and creativity, and here again the inclusion of the experiences of people of color in her research sample could have been enriching. Despite generations of oppression, African Americans, Native Americans, Latinos, and other people of color have continued to excel in the creative and performing arts, and while some have attempted to diminish the meaning or significance of that success, Dr. Brown's research begins to show that this success may very well be because of rather than in spite of the ongoing struggles and difficulties faced by people of color.
Dr. Brown also mentioned the link between a strong sense of hope and the experience of struggle. As a woman of color, I immediately thought of Dr. King and the many civil rights leaders and activists of color over the centuries who have embodied this connection. That none of this was mentioned in the course of this aspect of the discussion I found to be a particularly glaring and unfortunate error on the part of Dr. Brown and Mrs. Tippett.
Dr. Brown discussed that living a full life involves the willingness to be afraid and brave on a daily basis. When people of color get together in a safe space to discuss what it is like to work and live in the white world of the United States, especially young men of color, this idea is often at the heart of what is discussed - the fear and stress that comes with having to face microaggressions from white people, or from getting stopped by a cop for walking or driving in the 'wrong' part of town, or from feeling that one is responsible for representing their entire race well when interacting with others of another race, or from wondering if they were passed over for recognition because of their race. The stress and fears that people of color experience from confronting these issues on an ongoing basis are very real, and that we continue to face such conditions on a daily basis in order to work towards our goals on behalf of ourselves and our families speaks to the bravery that people of color must engender within themselves to continue to live and work in the United States. This is not a reality that white people have access to as revealed by Dr. Brown's conversation, and I believe that this is why this particular insight was especially novel and interesting for her. If, however, Dr. Brown had spent a meaningful amount of time engaged with people of color and their experiences, she could have gained a much deeper insight into what it means to live that contradiction as daily reality.
Finally, as an anti-racist activist and educator, I am particularly interested in what Dr. Brown's research might lend to the kind of work that I do since I find her research to be particularly revelatory about some of the deeper psychological aspects at work in the idea of "whiteness" and white privilege. She mentioned that people need to be able to hold a vulnerable space with each other in order to foster real relationships and connections, and that for many [white] people this is quite difficult. Anti-racist activists of all colors are all too familiar with the truth of her statement. White people often have an inordinate amount of difficulty in being able to be vulnerable and honest with people of color when having conversations about racism. I believe this is so because they simply do not know how to effectively handle and confront the guilt and shame that they experience when they are forced to confront white privilege, to accept their complicity in benefiting from that privilege, and to accept that society is as unjust and painful for people of color as they say it is. This resistance to psychological vulnerability is a very real impediment to making further inroads in the fight for equity and civil rights, and I believe that Dr. Brown's research when combined with critical race theories could prove to be a valuable tool in helping white people to develop a deeper understanding of and solidarity with people of color such that they are able to become effective anti-racist allies.
I do not know if my critiques will reach either Mrs. Tippett or Dr. Brown, but it is my sincere hope that they do, and that both will take the time to stay with their vulnerability, and to think critically about what I have shared in this post.
I don't know if your comments will help Dr. Brown, but they sure helped (or are helping) me. As a whilte woman from a priviledges background, I could completely relate to Dr. Brown's messages on vulnerability. I believe that white people of a certain economic status can live their entire lives without confronting their vulnerability -- at least not until facing their death. I think that is why Dr. Brown's message is so powerful to me. Why I loved and appreciated your comments is that it reminded me that not everyone has that same experience. I have a very good friend who is white, but is married to a latino man, and they have three children together. She and her family confront the very things that you talked about in your comments. I know that I have not done a good job of "creating a space" for her to talk about these things with me. Now I finally understand why talking about the racism she and her family face has been so hard for me. Most of the time, when she brings it up, I just want the conversation to get over quickly -- or I discount the severity of what she is saying in my head. I know she senses this and, frankly, has probably given up on talking with me about the subject. Your comments have helped me to understand why I have such a problem with fully "going there" with her. It is exactly as you said -- the inability to handle the guilt and shame of white privilege, to accept that my own complicity in benefiting from that privilege, to accept that society is as unjust and as painful for people of color as they say it is. I would add that, for me, it is also the fear of losing the benefit or status of white privilege. What would happen to me without this shield of protection? I don't know where this fear of losing status exactly fits in, but I know that it is affecting me some how. So I just wanted to thank you for pointing me in the right direction. I don't know if I will have the courage to actually go in that direction, but at least now I'll know why I'm not going there.
Tamara, thanks for your honesty in stating your fear of losing your white privilege. I agree that this is an important part of what often prevents white people from fully "going there" as you put it, though few might admit it as readily as you have. I think that at least part of the fear of losing white privilege comes from a limited understanding of what white privilege actually entails. Indeed, there is privilege as the name implies, but there is also deficit and pathology as well, and this is a particularly under-explored and unappreciated aspect of what has been called "whiteness" or white privilege. Tim Wise is the only popular white anti-racist activist that I know of who has spent some time exploring the idea that white privilege confers harm as well as benefit, and I believe that it is crucial that anti-racist educators of all colors expand the rhetoric around white privilege to reveal these hidden harms. I believe that it is only when white people come to appreciate the harm that is being done to them because of this so-called "privilege" that they will become more willing to let it go.
Peggy McIntosh speaks of the "invisible knapsack" - the hidden benefits of white privilege. There is also, however, what I refer to as the "glass cage" - the hidden harms of white privilege. Much of Dr. Brown's research reveals these hidden harms - decreased psychological resilience, a narrowing of one's emotional life, reduced efficacy in communication, an increased sense of isolation, and often overwhelming fears of failure which trigger maladaptive and neurotic behavior. While these issues are certainly not unique to white people, I do believe that such issues are much more dominant in the lives of white people when compared to people of color because of the limits imposed on them by whiteness and white privilege.
It is essential that we all recognize that racism is a system which dehumanizes everyone who is a part of the system, oppressed and oppressor alike. We tend to focus only on the harms to the oppressed for obvious reasons, but it is a mistake to ignore that the perpetrators of oppression, most of whom are unwittingly coerced into becoming oppressors through socialization into "whiteness", are also harmed. The Milgram Shock Experiments is one study that highlights the clear and serious psychological harm done to those who are consciously coerced into participating in an immoral act by an authority figure. I think that many white people do not realize the extent to which they are subconsciously harmed by their participation in an immoral and racist system.
To that end, instead of focusing on the loss to your friend by your reticence to "go there", a convenient defensive emotional stance adopted by the privileged, you should focus instead on your own loss, and consider who suffers the greater loss because of your reticence. There is so much that you will not learn because of your unwillingness to "go there" with your friend. Yes, there is guilt and shame to be had, but also a profound feeling of intimacy, compassion, empathy and connection - the emotions and experiences at the core of being fully human. Your friend already has access to this through her relationship with her husband. The greater loss then in all of this is not hers - it is yours.
Well, Dr. Allen, I certainly hope Krista and Dr. Brown do read your post, ultimately. I confess that the perspective that people of color might have on vulnerability had not occurred to me -- and since I'm Caucasian, I think that only exemplifies further exactly what you're talking about. A white person like me might not think immediately about someone of color having a very different, and more open, experience with vulnerability because I haven't had the same experiences with fighting racism each day. I'm awfully glad I was reading other people's comments about the interview with Dr Brown, and especially yours, though, because I think this is exactly the type of conversation I wish we could have more often about racism and inequality. These ugly truths won't go away unless we all acknowledge them and discuss them honestly. (True also for discrimination against same-sex couples, as some other commenters have indicated.) I agree with every point you've made here. Very well said.
Thank you so much for your comments. A truly valuable addition.
Dear Ms. Allen
I, too, am a woman of color (African American), and a fan as well of "On Being." In fact, I have been listening to Krista Tippett's show before it was changed to "On Being." I write to commend you on your magnificent response to Dr. Brené Brown's conversation with Ms. Tippett about shame and vulnerability and how these concepts should be understood relative to the lives of people of color. It is the overlooking or "benign negligence" in including the lives and experiences of people of color in these discussions that brings into high relief the prevailing truth that we still have a lot of work to do in racial matters; we have not yet overcome and we have not yet moved into a "post-racial" neighborhood. Your well-wrought points about how the struggle with shame and vulnerability stand is an ongoing and difficult one resonated deeply for me as an African American and Christian woman. There is no useful blueprint or set of guidelines for people such as myself who must try on their own to reconcile religious teachings with the attitudes of a still-dominant white culture that either tacitly or openly declares that people of color have every reason to be feel shame and to be vulnerable. Your citing of the term "microaggressions," one which I encountered in the book "Whistling Vivaldi, was also significant, in that it powerfully underscores the pernicious tyranny of subtle racism. The radar of people of color, I would argue (and I think you would agree), is always in the "up" position; we never feel comfortable enough to be vulnerable because we are already vulnerable. At the same time, white people are loath to relinquish their need to have power and control for fear of being vulnerable to the people of color whom they continue to hold in varying degrees of contempt. Only when they can confront this truth will there be any possibility for both groups to interact without fear, guilt or shame and to give full expression to their humanity.
I guess this is pretty late in the game to comment, but I think these comments merit stating.
I am white and I am not a racist. Because like Dr. King said, I judge people on their integrity and character and not the color of their skin. I can disagree with a black person because I disagree with them, same as anyone else of any other color I might disagree with. Besides, Dr. King is one of my role models - now there was a man of character and integrity!
I completely agree that a life of daily struggle such as you describe can be fertile soil for developing resilience. There are also a lot of other possible outcomes that were not explored in these comments, and certainly was outside the scope of the talk. I am empathetic to the plight of those who are wrongfully oppressed and shamed and dehumanized. I denounce such things and I speak out about such things. Much as it might shock people, I can relate. It means that I (the white woman) am willing to listen to your story of what it is like to be a black woman in North America. It is your story - it is intensely personal. You are entitled to tell it and if I am going to have the honor of listening then it should be from a place of trying to understand where you are coming from, and to see the meaning and the feeling behind the words to catch the full picture.
But don't stomp all over Dr. Brown's personal story and professional work. But it is not okay to lash out at other people, particularly when they are being vulnerable, because their story plays on your own insecurities. In this case racial issues or the neglect of them seems to be the insecurity at play. I personally think that when we stop being offended about feeling excluded we have really made peace with ourselves and fully believe that 'we are enough'. Then we don't worry about what others think or say about us or neglect to say about us. And then we can bring our full authentic selves to the moment and we can stop and fully appreciate others for who they are and what they have to contribute. Just because you figured some of this stuff about vulnerability out long ago doesn't mean that someone else's story is any less powerful, any less authentic, any less daring. We each have our own story. We each have our own journey. We each learn different lessons at different times in our lives. And certainly she doesn't want your sympathy for her unfortunate privileged white upbringing - "o you poor white girl that everyone treated with kit gloves..." type commentary. She wants your empathy - your statements that you've been there, you get it, you know about vulnerability and all the pain and strength that it brings... type commentary. That's the whole point she is trying to make. That's the place she is inviting us to go to - it's a messy, out-of-control, sometimes painful place - but it is also where the real business of living happens and where real connection happens. It is where we discover that we are not as different as we thought, that on the inside we all look the same and we all have the same needs for love and belonging, and the same things that hurt your feelings also hurt mine. And that's when the magic happens, when I see you for who you are, and not as some stereotype of what "people like you" are like. When I really see you, and you really see me. And that's the whole point, that her work about shame, and vulnerability, and connection is universal - it doesn't matter if you are black or white or yellow or red - because it applies to all of us, as human beings.
I take issue with this "obvious" stuff. Do you have any idea of the research methodology of qualitative research? It is, after all, research, and one of the fundamentals of science is to get a representative sample. Do you not think that her sample would have included people of all races, socioeconomic backgrounds, etc. Sometimes these "microaggressions" are imagined slights.
Have you considered that her research is pioneer work in the scientific community? Had you considered the incredible risk and cost to her personally to do this work? Had you considered that because of her willingness to dare and to be vulnerable in sharing on a wide forum, this important work now has the potential to influence everything from parenting to economics to education to racial dynamics to poverty? And that if this was put into practice we could raise a whole generation of kids who are resilient, creative and see people for who they really are? Had you considered that because there is scientific backing for these "obvious" concepts, in a culture where everything has to have proof that it works (oh we love certainty), that it gives the movers and shakers of our world the evidence they need to influence public policy and government decisions so that we will collectively put our money where our mouths are? If it was all so obvious, why didn't someone else put it in writing first? Do you know that you can't get your Ph.D. if your work is not 100% new and original and never been done before? Do you have any idea what coding her data by hand would mean? The hours and hours of work, the challenge of pulling patterns and themes coherently out of over a thousand stories you have collected? But that is the thing with good science and communicating it well - it is elegant and straightforward, but then to those who don't know how much sweat and tears and elbow grease it cost tosses it aside as 'obvious', 'logical', 'common sense'. You know what it sounds like to the person on the receiving end of these comments: "Why would you waste 12 years of your life studying that? Your work is not important enough for me to take seriously." And lastly, the information a scientist communicates to the public is often just the tip of the iceberg, because it makes it accessible and practical for people. But if you read their academic publications you are often astounded by the depth and complexity of their work.
The shape of your argument is interesting and, to me, disturbing:
1. I'm not racist -- I'm on your side.
2. You're being too negative -- stop it.
3. You're really ignorant about the issues -- you don't know what you're talking about.
Maybe you'll never see this comment, but if you do, please, please, please, go watch some videos and read some books by Tim Wise.
Ms. Allen- 'these insights seem quite obvious to me" -? I taught public school where all of my black students qualified for 'free lunch.' There were no white students in this segregated neighborhood in Wash.DC Many of them were strong, brave and comfortable in their skin! .They were creative, fun and open to life. Some were encouraged to come to school because after school they put on uniforms and went out on 'Rat Patrol' to help solve the rat problem in their neighborhood. I remember on student who was tardy some days because he had to chain his bike to the radiator before he came to school.
A helpful critique and your experience validates her research. People of privilege have many things to learn. Thanks.
I had a different response than Sara, although I too am lesbian. The tenor of your conversation with Brown was very upsetting to me because it CLEARLY seemed clueless about those people, like myself and many many others, who did NOT suffer in any way from having "overprotective" parents and quite the contrary, who grew up in a nightmare. What about the kids in the inner city, growing up amidst the carnage of guns and drugs? What about those like myself and many others suffering the ravages of intense child abuse (a state of being that, as far as I am aware, has not ceased) and as a result walk around in a state of fear a good deal of the time in a society that, I can assure you, DOES NOT want to listen to any of us talk about the realities we live with day to day. In short, your conversation was one geared to economically and emotionally privileged people without EVER acknowledging this fact. And in having such a conversation you left out many many people who remain marginalized. I don't believe that was your intent, but that was how it felt to me. I was reminded of lyrics to Springsteen's "Born in the USA" as I listened to what felt to me like your conversation disconnected from many people's realities: "Til you end up like a dog that's been beat too much/spend half your life just covering up/Born in the USA/I was Born in the USA/I'm a long gone daddy in the USA." Springsteen's songs always spoke to me, although we live very different lives because I feel like he tells the truth about growing up in the USA, and because he doesn't have some overarching theory like Ms. Brown, that he thinks he can apply to all of us.
I was heartened to hear Krista’s discussion with Dr. Brown on the subject of being vulnerable, especially since, in the latter half of the interview, I heard that a self-exploration of fear and shame might actually apply to me, a latter-middle-aged man. (Halleluah. Love is not a victory march.) I only lament that a discussion on young boys and their vulnerability wasn’t included in Dr. Brown’s discussion; socially, educationally, and spiritually boys are being left behind at an alarming rate, even as girls and women advance. What I usually hear from orthodox feminists—among whom I don’t include Dr. Brown—is a celebration of the End of Men. As if there’s justice in that notion. A discussion on vulnerability that includes men serves the higher goals of feminism. So, on that point, Dr. Brown, I say bravo.
This might be a bit much. But I'm listening to it today and thinking about us and our company and meeting up soon, and it resonated. So thought I'd share. The TED talk is a condensed version, a little less time commitment than the interview.
Talk to you soon!
I'm with you Sara. But the idea that brought me here was the assertion that *men* aren't allowed to be vulnerable in relationships. I don't think the problem is that many women don't want *men* to be vulnerable, but that many women aren't strong enough to allow their partner, irrelevant of their partner's gender, to be vulnerable. I've found that both in romantic relationships and friendships with other women, many women want to be vulnerable, but don't want the other person male or female to show weakness.
I have been a faithful listener for ... I dont even know how many years now, six or seven? I set my alarm clock on Sunday mornings at 7am so I can listen to this show. This year's interviews have been amazing, life-changing, and sometimes disturbing (in a good way!). Today, though, might be the most jarring program of them all. I think I will have to go back and listen to this program at least 10 times before I can absorb all the wisdom. It was like listening to the Dalai Lama, Pema Chodron, Thich Naht Hahn, Desmond Tutu, Rumi, Theresa of Avila, my therapist, my priest, my mother, and my best friend all distilled into one voice. And I did not like what they were saying, but I knew if I care at all about myself and my fellow humans, I must listen. And I must change. Thank you. What a great meditation to take into Advent.
I want to thank Krista Tippett and OnBeing.org for posting the unedited interviews that Krista conducts with her guests. I have two reasons for this gratitude:
First, I really feel like I get to "know" the guest a little better. I hear the banter, off-the-cuff remarks and extra stories that don't make it into the produced one-hour radio version of the interview. It is a richer experience for me.
Second, they don't edit out the technical difficulties. This week's show with Brene Brown had a major technical issue right in the middle of it. As a pastor who leads a weekly worship service that all-too-often suffers some sort of glitch, it's liberating (and in a twisted way, even encouraging) to get to listen in while pros try to solve unanticipated malfunctions. (Of course, the listener never hears the glitches on the produce show. That is part of the point of producing a finished show.)
I recommend "OnBeing" to everyone. It's a thought-provoking and kind conversation about the big questions in life.
I recognize someone here who has learned about surrender. This takes lots of courage, but is essential for real spiritual development. And THANK YOU, On Being, for being courageous (and vulnerable) enough to pursue the real deal.
As a man I was very grateful for Rene's realization that men suffer as much as women from shame. As a facilitator for a group of Catholic men who have regularly met for the last 16 years on Saturday mornings, I can attest to how important is for men to have a safe place to be authentic. I've heard from more than one wife about how their husband's participation in this group has changed the way their husband relates to them. On a personal note, I learned from a mental health therapist that if I could be vulnerable in discussing important matters with my wife, in all likelihood she would be willing to open up and trust me in response. While it was not easy (and sometimes painful), we are now at a place of athuenticity and love in our marriage that 20 years ago I never would have envisioned. Finally, all one has to do is look to the life of Jesus to understand how vulnerability and love are so closely interrelated when the Creator of the universe became one of us as a totally helpless infant, and then allowed himself to be mocked, abandoned, beaten and crucified in order to allow us to share eternity in the loving presence of the Trinity. It doesn't get any more loving or vulnerable than that. One other thing I've noticed over the past 20 years - many men are sad (and exhausted trying to live up to the macho man image) and many women are angry (and exhausted trying to live up to being superwomen). It's really a shame (no pun intended). If we could learn to give up our masques and be real, we all would be so much more content with ourselves and others. Blessings to all of you for a wonderful program and ministry.
Excited to have some time tonight to listen to this interview with Brene Brown. I must admit, however, that I was disappointed to read the text that introduced the interview on your website, the final line of which states ... "And now it’s inspiring millions to reconsider the way they live, parent, and navigate relations with members of the opposite gender." As a non-heterosexual woman, surely the brilliant, compassionate and insightful work of Brene is also applicable to myself as well as all people regardless of whether our navigations are with members of the opposite or same gender.
In closing, thank you for making this incredible interview available. I will continue to follow your valuable work.
This talk helped with one of the most gratifying "breakthrough" moments of many months. I have been on a 4-month leave of absence from my work as a psychotherapist, resting and reviewing recent life events and attempting to figure out how to avoid the kind of "lifeless" living that created my current health predicament—melanoma cancer. In the span of 5 years between another difficult event, a traumatic brain injury, and this recent cancer diagnosis, I had started a private practice, given two very personal talks about my brain injury to conference attendees, created a 10-minute video for one of these talks, and started a blog called The Expert Within about healing though cultivating and connecting with inner wisdom. I had worked to the point of exhaustion, wanting to make my life and it's attendant adversities mean something. Now that I needed to carefully sort out where to put my energy, I looked at my work with clients, my creative ventures, and my attempts to communicate about important alternative healing methods, and nothing spoke to me because nothing seemed to have spoken to others (on any grand scale). Even as I write this, I see that I was viewing the mixed feedback through a perfectionist lens, one of many characteristics which Ms Brown listed as signs of her own difficulties with vulnerability.
I had a sense that I needed to disconnect my sense of satisfaction in my projects from other's feedback, but didn't know how to do it. The take-away message from the unedited interview with Ms Tippett and Ms Brown is that life's joys come from this very disconnection, which in turn comes from positive self-regard. And self-regard comes with practice. When I love, I tell myself I am love. When I write, I tell myself I'm worthy of being heard. When I speak my truth in front of a large group without trying to defend against criticism, I tell myself that my truth has merit, even if it is not a match for what most people think. When I create art which doesn't garner much excitement from others, I'm only doing what all artists do—working without guarantees of success, but, instead, from the pure joy of creating.
As others commented, it's the unedited version of this podcast which allowed for the depth and exploration of personal experience of the two which allowed me this breakthrough. You have my greatest gratitude and respect.
I love the show, I loved this show. I listened to the podcast and the unedited interview and will read the twitter thing I just saw. I'll read the book.
However,as a middle aged physician with many elderly patients, I sucked in my breath a bit at the use of the phrase 'aging badly'.
It seems that aging and illness are two major sources of shame and vulnerability in our culture despite the reality that we will all eventually 'fail' at being healthy and staving off death. In the end, now matter how much of our own work we've done, how vulnerable we've been, how wholeheartedly we've lived, we are all susceptible to being eaten 'from the inside out.' And we live in a culture that blames and shames us if we happen to be so unlucky. Our allergy to vulnerability is no more obvious than in how we deal, or don't, with aging and the often inevitablity of illness. To me that we even talk about aging well or poorly is an indication of our fear of this ultimate vulnerability.
I too was intrigued by Krista touching on this issue. I too am a middle aged (65) physician. First I was stroke by the reference to aging as being 40's. I have watched the trajectories of professionals over time and it is true that by the mid 40's some people hit a wall. They stop growing. I am not sure that I agree with Brene that people make a conscious decision here. At the same time I think her observations on the nature of that wall reflect a challenge to address the restrictive roles we find ourselves in and the challenge to find our souls. As a geriatrician I was expecting to hear more about ageing in the context of my day to day work as Kate addresses. The acceptance of aging and the ability to find joy in ageing in spite of the adversities is crucial to ageing well. This requires the acceptance of vulnerability. In my small sample of one physician's lifetime in medicine there Is a gender difference here although great individual variations. I have started to collect poems related to ageing and there is a genre I call "In spite of poems" which reflect this acceptance and the courage to live well. Patricia Goodman's "Riding the Reptile with Amy at Jungle Jim's Water Park" is a shining example of this. Kate raise this issue of shame which is major issue for people in our society now with the advancing epidemic of dementia. It is a real barrier as we wrestle with the question early diagnosis. It takes immense courage to face the increasing vulnerability of this syndrome. I was fortunate to learn early in my career the power of exposing my own vulnerabilities to medical students. They often suffer from 'the imposter syndrome'. To understand that their mentors have struggled with challenges, second guessing themselves and failures allows them the freedom to take risk and to care for themselves. With patients and with colleagues I often point out that the hardest person to forgive is ones self.
Adoration, solidarity, prize, do not unify folks as much as a general hatred just for one thing.
I'm not one who ever posts comments. And I'm not one who is known to ever cry. But I just got done listening to this show and I cried through half of it. I've probably listened to all of your shows at least once and this one is undoubtably the best. Thank you Brene and thank you Krista!
Thanks for another inspiring conversation.
Underlying much of the toxic shame that causes humans,myself included , to don our armor before venturing into the world, is the implicit and explicit messages about shame from religions-starting with the concept of original sin.
Elaine Pagels looks at this in her book, Adam,Eve and the Serpent.
Perhaps a subsequent show could look at the role religions play in foisting the patina of shame on much of our population?
Thanks again for sharing Brene Browns work and inspiring more thoughts and feelings for us to grow on.
It was affirming and prodding at the same time to hear your interview with Brene Brown. Hope has been a growing theme in my social work practice for some time while seeing increasingly how it can evolve in our lives through self and connective nurturing. Nurturing hope in our vulnerabilities has added much new value and teeming life into my awareness. With hope one more clearly can conceive goals, identify pathways and change thoughts leading to new ways of existence. A Hikou for this occasion . . .
my life so far
comes spring with promise of bloom
etched in childhood
What an amazing show! Not only was it inspiring to hear Ms. Brown, but Ms. Tippett dis an equally extraordinary job of interviewing. It was like a beautiful duet.
On Being - Thank you for This and ALL your Interviews!!! Since 2008 they have been one of my main Life Guides.
After listening to the John O'Donohue's interview in 2008 I traveled with his friend and fellow poet David Whyte to John's homeland on this trip: http://www.davidwhyte.com/ireland.html
Mornings were full of poetry and afternoon hikes to the specific places in the landscape where the poems where born.
This poem "The Seven Streams" deals with vulnerability. After the hikes, Pints where shared with live Music into the Wee Hours.
I equally wholeheartedly recommend both On Being & David Whyte's poems and Trip to Friends, Strangers, Family & Foes Alike.
The Seven Streams
Come down drenched, at the end of May,
with the cold rain so far into your bones
that nothing will warm you
except your own walking
and let the sun come out at the day's end
by Slievenaglasha with the rainbows doubling
over Mulloch Mor and see your clothes
steaming in the bright air. Be a provenance
of something gathered, a summation of
previous intuitions, let your vulnerabilities
walking on the cracked sliding limestone
be this time, not a weakness, but a faculty
for understanding what's about
to happen. Stand aboave the Seven Streams
letting the deep down curent surface
around you, then branch and branch
as they do, back into the mountain
and as if you were able for that flow,
say the few necessary words
and walk on, broader and cleansed
for having imagined.
-- David Whyte
from River Flow
©2007 Many Rivers Press
Cheers & Peace,
I've been a regular listener of this show almost al long as it has been in production. Thank you for providing this space for reflection and conversation.
this show really struck me. I am in the process of learning more about these ideas.
My take-away from this interview was that it was just 'first world problems' & 'white people angst'. Go let yourself be bad at art class, admit that trying to be perfect tires you out and don't send your kid to 34 camps to prepare her for trying out for a sport. I'd suggest she change the name of her study from 'vulnerability' to 'guilt over not having real problems'.
May I suggest listening to the part again about facing adversity and struggle? When we face those, we become vulnerable, that's when we grow and become, no matter howeasy or severe..
Great show again Ms. Tippett. A wonderful pairing of intellect and compassion between you and Dr. Brown. The unedited interview mentions a possible followup publication of the questions that were received during the interview with answers. Where will this be posted?
I was searching searching through this segment for the magic word "humility" to appear. Did enjoy hearing this segment - it's the sound of a person of New Age sensibilities growing up, growing out of them? I'll reserve judgment. Now to read all these comments.
Really appreciate comments from Sara, Davina and others reminding us that this conversation could go much deeper. I was also bothered a bit by the very binary way that gender and sexuality were assumed in the interview and the lack of mention of diverse cultural viewpoints, even though I don't think that was their intention. I do think Dr. Brown is fairly honest about the fact that she is coming from a biased lens - she admits that she only studied women partly selfishly because that was her vantage point. I hope the discussion here helps her take what she has learned forward onto the next level. Although I am caucasian and certain aspects of this gave me that revelatory feeling some commenters have expressed, I also agree with Davina's point that some of it seemed extremely familiar, like "well...duh." Maybe because I married and then divorced a black immigrant from Africa and did what I could to open my mind to his perspective. Maybe because I have good friends who are homosexual. Maybe because I have worked with low-income families of all backgrounds struggling with chemical addiction. Maybe because I've listened to a lot of On Being conversations that I feel touched on some of the same points, albeit not quite as directly or "jarringly."
I really wonder if the research actually came primarily from white people's experiences, or whether it was a diverse collection but Dr. Brown was just so personally affected by the results she found in her own awakening experience that she didn't quite get to the next leap to look at whether cultural differences were relevant as well. When she was describing people who are more whole-hearted it actually made me imagine a middle-aged black woman, who has maybe had a lot of struggles in life (including the daily confrontation of residual racism that Davina describes so well) but also has a great family, has found her own path her definition of success, and lives her life in gratitude.
Anyway, thanks to others here who are more on top of things and eloquent than me, for helping me name what those red flags were I experienced during the interview. It is still a valuable lesson to share, for sure. We are all gradually waking up to a more clear and compassionate reality at different stages and speeds, but if we're going in the same direction it's a good sign, right?
Thank you for this conversation. Last time I heard this kind of "girl-friend" vibe between Krista and an interviewee was her talk with Terry T Williams. Thanks for the window-in.
I'm glad Brene is doing research on men. I facilitate a men's group who's members are EAGER to share themselves, how they feel & that its ok to show emotion. They always seem to be asking me if this is ok to do this, and I am constantly saying YES! We need to find more ways to help people tap into these vulerabilities so they can heal
What is the source of the "Alleluliah" sung during part of the Brené Brown interview? I would like to get a copy.
It's Jeff Buckley's cover of Hallelujah.
My favorite of his up on YouTube is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8AWFf7EAc4
Jeff passed on at a relative early age in 1997.
FYI this song is on his emotively beautiful album Grace.
I have heard you plan to host a live chat w Brene Brown. Can you tell me the details or where I can find it on your site? Thank you LGarfinkel
I haven’t been following the On Being program very long, but almost every story I have heard has interested me greatly. I found myself particularly connected to this story about vulnerability. I find that I can relate greatly to the issue of distancing myself from vulnerability. It has always been my thing to go out and try to make everyone proud and achieve a 4.0 GPA while taking on the world by myself. I never ask for help and I consider B’s a failure. I would attribute this type of mentality by, as Brene says, being hardwired for struggle.
I think I have lived the past few years as if the only way to live life is to succeed in everything I do. To not do so would make me a disappointment to everyone around me, as to myself. In reality, I would probably only disappoint myself, but this is the mentality that I have. I think that if I had been told as a child that I don’t need to be perfect, my life goals would have been completely different. I would have focused on a plan to achieve things that make me happy rather than my only source of happiness being success. I think I will try to take Brene’s ideas to heart in my future, but how hard will it be to completely change directions? I think it might take my own nervous breakdown, but I think that the idea of letting vulnerability in, is one that is very important to fix our society and prevent the epidemic of “emotional numbing” that is clearly plaguing our culture today.
“The most beautiful things that I look back on in my life are coming out from underneath things that I didn’t know I could get out from underneath.” -Brene Brown
Identifying with the word shame. It is hard for most of us, but it really is the reality of life. In reality, so many people strive for perfection that it makes them feel like they are not good enough which is the definition of shame given by Brene Brown. The feeling of not being good enough often keeps me up at night but the opening statement (see above) to this broadcast really opened my eyes to some of the greatest things about me which are in fact my struggles an hardships. The things that I thought might keep me down, but never could. These moments of vulnerability did not make me weak, but stronger with each encounter. The times I have felt ashamed, and made it out of that, in turn make me proud. The beautiful part is that we make it out! How can we know what beauty is if we do not know what shame feels like? How can we be strong if we do not know what it is to be vulnerable?
To be truthful, the feelings of shame and vulnerability are present in just about everyone in our society. The question is why do we all hide it? Why are we ashamed of feeling shame or vulnerability? We fail to realize that everyone can relate, and sometimes, in the midst of repressing these feelings within ourselves, we forget that we can relate to others. I think it’s time to start being honest with ourselves and others because not one of us is perfect, and perfection is the only thing that deserves absolutely no shame. If we have nothing else in common, we can at least say that we share the characteristic of being imperfect and that at times we do feel shame or a sense of unworthiness because of it.
This was a wonderful interview. The truth of which Brene Brown speaksI have experienced.
I particularly appreciated the 'turn' she describes in her research when she opened horizons to men. Being a man myself, I know deeply what it feels like to carry shame as well as the release and freedom that come when I've had the courage to be vulnerable.
Brilliant stuff. This is a gift to humanity.
Krista, I just listened to your interview with Brene Brown on vulnerability. I've been a listener of On Being for years, but this particular show resonated with me. I've struggled my entire life with the need to be perfect, to do it all exactly right. I received straight A's in college, but didn't go to graduate school until my mid-forties because I was afraid of failing. A writer, I berate myself if I don't put pen to page or tap the keys every single day. I hesitate to call myself a writer unless I publish a piece of my work. I never made the connection, though, between my perfectionist tendencies and shame. But, after listening to Brene, and you, speak, I see it! The notion of merely "showing up," of embracing vulnerability as a positive experience, is like breathing eucalyptus - I can now breathe.
Like several have said, I never post in response to shows. But at 37:54, Brene says on parenting:
"Our job is during struggle to look at our kids and say: 'yeah, this is hard and this is tough and you're hurt, and I'm not gonna fix it, but you're not alone. And I wanna make sure you understand that this doesn't change the fact that you're worthy of love and belonging.'"
Wow. Don't know if she intended it that way, but just hear that as the job of our Eternal Parent. About as succinct a response to the question if theodicy as I have heard.
I have a different key definition for the courage born of vulnerability. Courage and the vulnerability are born together in the moment when we see and accept what our need is. Our real need is our vulnerability, our place where we are not in control and it shows.
This is also the core of our strength and the reason vulnerability is the opposite of gullibility. Because when we are in touch with our real need - we are in touch with ourselves. We cannot be convinced that our truth is otherwise. We have already had the courage to see and reveal our selves.
Look at the way Abraham negotiates for the Cave of Machpelah as a burial site for his wife Sara. A master of soft power.
Interesting, but strikes me as a highly raced and very much a class discussion.
I got up early enough to listen to the end of your show with Brene' Brown and was caught, taking notes. Both your words applied to my parenting my challenging daughter, and more importantly to me. I am in transition, retiring from a huge job (a chaplain doing integrative medicine in a large cancer center) and a new move. I was sobbing at the end with the awareness that someone had named what I was feeling. The irony is that I am usually very good at self awareness. Thank you, now I have more good work to do,
I grew up in a situation that taught me in a very extreme way that I needed to numb emotions and never be vulnerable; I've spent my adulthood slowly backing out of that insanity. So this interview was, as they say, relevant to my interests.
One thing I wish had been pursued in greater depth, however, was the exact nature of the difference between those who are wholehearted/vulnerable, and those who are fearful/shamed. In a couple of places in the interview, this difference was alluded to, but what I'm thinking of wasn't exactly named.
This is what I mean: to be wholehearted is to be, in one's inner self, simple, unified, direct. It means having a peaceful awareness of one's core being, and acting out of that peace. Shame and fear are the opposite -- to live that way is to be divided. It means we project an image of ourselves, believe that image is our "true" self, and judge it as if from the outside. To do this is to treat oneself as an object in a world of objects -- but who is the self actually doing this? Who is the one doing the judging? "I" see, evaluate, judge, and condemn "myself." But who am "I"? We forget that "I" completely; we believe we are the object of our own judgment.
This is a logical contradiction. Stepping into wholeheartedness means we see that the self we think we are actually doesn't exist; it's a false self, a really bad game we learned to play in order to try somehow to win the love we need and want. (It's what the Bible calls "double-mindedness.")
So I think Brene Brown's ideas about vulnerability point to what is essentially a spiritual truth. Although language can never capture that truth completely, the language I tend to use is that this true self, the self who becomes willing to be vulnerable, is intimately and indissolubly present to God - - completely and always, whether we're aware of it or not; "faith" is perceiving and assenting to this reality. As such the self is actually completely invulnerable, since it isn't subject to the world of experience: it's "hid with Christ in God." But since it's an embodied self, its invulnerability as the beloved of God gives it the capacity to be radically vulnerable -- wholehearted -- in the world of experience.
And the spiritual path is simply learning to disbelieve in the false self (in Christian terms, this is "askesis"), and to believe in the true self, and live accordingly.
Thank you so much, Krista and Brene! I have previously read some of Brene Brown writings and thought they were extremely valuable, but hearing this interview definitely filled in some gaps. I have more admiration and understanding of Brene's viewpoint as well as her background. And beyond that, On Being is one program where sitting down and taking notes--as I did during this interview--is really worthwhile most weeks. Thanks so much for your work!
I've been working with men since 1980. I appreciate what you say about our fear of being perceived as weak either by others or by ourselves as a significant source of shame. I really like the question, "How do women feel about men owning and expressing their vulnerability?" My best hunch is that when women are running a paternal projection upon the significant men in their worlds. they likely will have some attachment to men maintaining a persona of bravado. There is also the threat of losing that part of their identities which had them be the providers of emotional intelligence to the relationship. However, likely an even bigger deal is that women are very often raised by women who taught them to be needed by men. Hence, women tend to organize their psychologies and their rapport to men in a way that keeps women needed by men. These women often have let go of any attachment to being loved by men and have settled into being needed. Once a man begins to live from his vulnerability, the psychological construct of being needed is threatened. The result is some profound insecurity and fear related to: Will I actually be loved? And what does being loved look like? Do I have to betray my father in order to be loved by a man? Will we dare to build emotional intimacy based upon my man's new found ability to be vulnerable? And what in God's name will that look like?
Thanks for a perfect interview with Krista On Being. I am encouraged by your honestly and bravery. I am trying to maintain courage during astonishing losses and bereavement; unfair treatment, of course. Sometimes sowing what others reap seems impossible to integrate into our souls. Sometimes kindness being repaid with great evil (ignorance) causes such harm that the best attitude and coping skills, detachment, prayers and distraction and insight barely help! Thank you for being the continuing voice of reason! Amen God bless you!
Thanks. I have listened to on being off and on...more off than on lately..so glad I heard this.
Brene was my hero on Ted talks. I had thought since reading "Living, Loving and Learning" by Leo Buscaglia 25+ years ago that living vulnerably, openheartedly was the way to go...and ever since I read that book, all I saw from my culture near and far was that I was crazy and wrong. What was talked about here encourages me that I may still be crazy, but I am not all that wrong...at least not any more wrong than the other crazies of the world who don't believe me and live other ways.
Just thanks. And I don't think men and women are all that different about vulnerability. But you both explained what differences there are very well. Every woman wants to know their man is vulnerable and feels shamed, until they understand how weak, vulnerable, shamed they really are and how much they have failed.
I stutter. I compare myself to fluent speakers.
Result: I'm deficient. SHAME ON YOU, HENRY
If when listening to me speak someone appears to be
making a concerted effort to appear compassionate,
I feel patronized and condescended to.
I'm aware of this
I'm aware that a lot of this is my own projection.
sometimes I laugh at myself for putting through all this
It's my struggle.
Struggle is enlightening
This show resonated so well with the reflections that I have been following over the past several years of Richard Rohr, OFM. The vulnerability that Brene Brown speaks of parallels the "nakedness" that Rohr says we must experience as we become spiritually mature. Numerous other similarities exist, with Rohr approaching the concepts from a spiritual perspective.
Ravi Chandra, M.D.
Is there such a thing as being too sensitive?
Can sight be too keen?
Hearing, too acute?
Sensitivity is what we call listening-with-the-heart.
Your heart can never be too open,
Though listening here can hurt.
“Heart” is a near cousin to “Highly Tuned Ear”;
there is an ear in your heart,
Pulsing a message to “Hear This”,
The beat in all, this beat we must always tend.
Even when we breathe, we inhale
the anagram “Be Heart”,
An inspiring instruction,
Hearing it is life.
For our hearts are sensitive, even to air,
And so, to word, to views and even airs.
To the heartless and hard-hearted,
To the earless for dissent -
I say sensitivity is not a failing -
It predicts the amplitude of ascent.
From feeling heart springs compassion,
Understanding – wisdom – insight.
Sensitivity births every living thing
And precedes even the creation of light.
But some get angry when the sensitive
Point to problems, and suggest that they are flawed.
It takes courage to be vulnerable,
And not everyone applauds.
Why can’t they understand when the sensing
Point to blind spots in their careening, deadly cars?
Their headlights are too dim.
They drive drunk on self-regard.
Ravi, thanks so much for writing and submitting this poem.
This interview really hit home for me. I am 31 one years old, and less then one year ago I had a transformative life experience that vulnerability and courage were at the heart of. I was engaged, a few months away from getting married. I was on a superficial life track like the one mentioned towards the end of the interview. Then one day, I woke up. Suddenly, my walls came down and my heart opened up to myself. What happened after that was the most vulnerable I've had to be in my life and everyone I know told me it was the most courageous. I promptly called off our wedding and started my life over.
Ironically, part of the reason our hearts were not equally matched has much to do with this research as well. I have had some very negative events happen in my life. These things have most certainly shaped me as a person. Most notably is the fact that my older sister was victim of a hate crime which rendered her mentally disabled and schizophrenic for the rest of her life. She was only 14, and is now 37. This event alone pushes me to live a more meaningful life then if it never happened. Everything I do is fueled by my sister's tragedy in some shape or form. My then fiance had never faced a difficult situation in his life. I'm sorry to say it but he was very self absorbed, unable to empathize with others, and obsessed with material living. I could not more forward together with him in my life.
So when Brown talks about vulnerability and struggle as fundamentals of wholehearted living, lives of relationship, courage and creativity — I absolutely feel this to be true. Incidentally, I'm also enrolled in a graduate arts program. In fact, it was the relationships formed within this program that brought me to my awakening. I am now researching creativity. Funny how cyclical and interconnected life is.
Victoria, thanks for sharing your experience. I'm awestruck by the number of folks who are identifying this need to be vulnerable in order to open up to their lives. Just wonderful.
Men and women alike can face shame and vulnerability but it can be experienced differently. Dr. Brown is saying that, we sit and think what others might say about us if they find out we are going through certain things in life. But it is okay to go through struggles and hardship. These are all things in life that we should experience and not things to be ashamed about.
One phrase that really stood out to me is, “Does this mean that our capacity for wholeheartedness can never be greater than our courage to be brokenhearted”? Some people allow the sorrow or grief they are faced with to over shadow their commitment. With the passing away of my husband, that has allowed me to use my sorrow and grief as a tool to help me achieve those things in life that I am committed to. This interview has a powerful message that we tend to overlook as humans.
Thank you for your gracious email - it was this interview that inspired me to purchase the book - mostly it was a story she told about a man who asked her if she had looked at the research in terms of male and that exchange whcih is part of this interview moved me to tears
This is a beautiful interview that is raw yet refined. Brené's process of self-reflection and analysis of the human experience are inspiring.
This is quality work and very helpful to to all of us both man and woman.I was introduce to your website you are providing great content that actually help and benefit individuals of every race and gender.Listening to the information provided gives me a new way to view my own life and experiences.Thank you for what you do and please continue to share this high quality information.
I found this through Audible when I searched on Brene Brown. I really enjoyed listening to this interview especially the discussion on men and vulnerability and how women contribute to the inability for men to express it as well as the discussion about hopelessness. Thanks so much for offering this.
I have now downloaded the iphone app and look forward to listening to other broadcasts!
One of the parts that hit me the most is when the husband says he thinks his wife and children would rather see him die on his white horse than fall off. Wow! I think he needs to seriously needs to sit down and have a wholehearted conversation with his family if he really feels that to be true.
Also, the quote something like "be kind to others 'cause you don't know what struggles they're enduring".
Thank you Dr. Brown! I am about to retire from an excruciating position as Nurse Manager of a tiny physical rehab hospital. The nursing staff there (10 RNs, 10 CNAs, 2unit secretaries) with whom I had come up through the ranks with, to put it mildly - ate my lunch. I was an RN there and was selected through a large reorganization, to become the nurse manager answerable to the Chief Nursing Officer at the main medical center in another facility. With a lot of autonomy, I was excited because I "knew just what we needed". I tried to be what the other managers were not. I tried to be vulnerable, to "be there" accessible, stern but fair, out there helping and helping to change and settle issues I knew we needed settled. Whoa!!! 3years later, I am still trying to give my 125% because our patients need someone to be the advocate but am only able to do this for 2 reasons. Gods mercies are new every morning, and December 31st (my retirement date) is 4 months away. I heard your TED talk this morning on NPR. THANK YOU!!! You really helped me remember that being vulnerable, trying your best is the point!! Failing in that is sometimes not really up to you! Sometimes it just is what it is!! But I tried! I gave it my all! I got out there like you said, and I will never regret that, I'll never have to wonder "what if"!!! I still think it could have worked, and truly should have worked, but.... But thank you for your perspective. In the next few years as my healing progresses, I hope to include perspectives such as yours in that process!
I saw Ms. Brown's TED presentation online before and tried to contact her but got no response. In her further presentations, it turned out that she's mostly oriented to the courage and vulnerability of women, who rely on men for their sustenance. Men are not permitted to be vulnerable, in Ms. Brown's world, because, of course, men must remain invulnerable. I have been vulnerable and courageous and authentic to myself and dared greatly, in compassion for suffering patients and the state board of medicine attacked me as a result and I no longer have a medical license. I have an engineering education, but, in the job market, my education is too antiquated, so I have no viable marketable skills. All employers require years of specific experience in their fields. General intelligence count for nothing. Ms. Brown has been no comfort to me.
I just discovered this interview after listening to Seth Godins interview. And I must say Brene Brown is a great discovery. Thanks Brene for your research!
My reflection is that this value of perfectionism was originated hundreds of years ago by thought leaders as an instrument to "protect" ourselves from our "imperfect" emotion-led being, in a time where emotions were considered irrational and not helpful. The countereffect of this is that, as Brene points out, it numbs our emotions including our sense of empathy. And, without empathy, we cannot feel this conscious warm feeling of "you are not alone."
Human beings are not perfect, we are not robots, we are emotion-led and precisely these emotions can help us to become more aware of our existence and more conscious of the choices we have.
So many great kernels of wisdom in this piece. Thank you for your work, Ms. Brown, and thank you Ms. Tippett, for finding. cultivating and sharing so many wonderful persons with us through your program.
I hesitated to hear an interview with BRENÉ BROWN based upon a reaction I experienced from my past listening of an episode of on vulnerability on On Being in 2012.
The categories of conversation once again seemed limiting, i.e., how vulnerability plays out in parenting, relationships, men with women, women with men, status.
I'm not worthy - was not the imposed limitation that resonated with the experience of shame as discussed by Ms. Brown.
I'm not allowed was and has been the limiting construction of the stages of my life and that resonated in what Ms. Brown reports as an example of a parent's feeling shame for, in situations with their children, i.e., to be the child that failed to fulfill a parent's and society's constructed identity and roll in life such as failure to try and/or failing if you try.
I have struggled with constructed limiting expectations for many years - from acceptance of my sexual orientation to gender roles and rules imposed by what we call patriarchy.
For instance, I am not allowed to make loving someone the foundation of a relationship, especially as it relates to sexual orientation.
It plays out in "shame on you" for equating such love as equal of protection and reverence - dare I say components in the resistance to same-sex marriage?
Notwithstanding the divisive arguments in this issue is shame an underlying component of this resistance?
Once we have exposed the historic, limiting legal constructions of marriage, we also expose our and society's role in imposing such restrictions, and equally our individual roles in promoting them.
Perhaps the movement to free ourselves of this participation is a community relational experience of communal vulnerability that expands a category for further dialogue.
After all, relationship in community can be a shaming experience if one breaks from the confines of its rules, or one actively engages to change them.
It is also liberating, when relationship in community forces the experience of vulnerability to advance deconstructions of limiting expectations, of "what has been allowed" to all of the lives of its members.
I wonder how "vulnerability" overlaps with risk taking? I think they overlap a lot, though I don't think they are they same. I think we sometimes takes risks just for the "rush". I think some sort of calculation or strategy lies behind being vulnerable. Like Brene said, if the case of men, listening without trying to fix.
I think we sometimes take "adrenaline rush type risks to compensate for not being vulnerable emotionally, though taking positive steps to change our circumstances in which we are not satisfied is certainly both risky and exposes our vulnerabilities, e.g. changing jobs, finding a therapist, eating differently, and in sexual relationships.
How can we tell the difference? It's important to me because sometimes I expose my vulnerabilities stupidly, recklessly. There are a lot of downsides and few upsides. So, of course, the results are likely to be bad, sometimes horrible.
The way I see it, vulnerability is a quality of the heart. Risk-taking is often instinctually driven, trying to satisfy a need, or as you said, for the rush. It tends to be more head/belly than heart center. Being vulnerable requires being with your feelings, allowing your heart to be risked and love to be expressed.
I appreciated listening to this interview on vulnerability and have always thought that we cannot fully experience life without embracing our fears and becoming vulnerable. Interesting for me is that as a so-called "well-educated, informed consumer," who often thinks I can fix things, Brene Brown reminds me that be truly human and experience life, I need to let go and let life happen!
Loved the interview with Brene Brown. I was married for 17 years to a 'perfectionist'. I am still reeling. I search every day for clues to the disconnect I see between men and women. This interview was one more very importand piece to the puzzle. Thanks!
Another wonderful important conversation. I'm glad Brene Brown is in tne national conversation. I have dared to forward this episode to my adult children who are already good parents. On another note: my wife and I don' t think your current sung by-line does you any favors. How about a church choir in four-part harmony? Your program is the church I attend.
The very idea of a man being vulnerable was so counter to the way I was raised in the post WWII era. Even to this day, I hear the response that Ms. Brown got from her male book signing guest,” They would rather see me die than fall” as an anthem from my spouse and children. Thank you for airing this most thought provoking and liberating broadcast.
With Brene Brown... oh my goodness... if only Others were so self-aware, comfortable and unafraid to be "the belly-up puppy in your lap" with the people in their lives...
Having been acquainted with Brene's work through a therapist, I looked forward to listening to the show. However, what she stated about men is basically what I already have come to realize - that if a man shows true fears/vulnerability to a woman, she will view the man as not the knight in shining armor that we are supposed to be 24/7. After disclosing abuse I suffered as a toddler to both my ex-wife and then to my ex-fiancee, both relationships ended within weeks after. After listening to the show, my gynophobia/fear of intimacy with women is only reinforced. Men are not allowed to be vulnerable. We have to pretend to be someone/something else to women. Losing half of everything I owned for being myself is a price too high.
I think what you experienced is something Brené refers to in her writings...show me someone who is willing to sit with me in vulnerability...these are people willing to be vulnerable themselves and willing to dare and take that risk to grow together.
I really loved listening to this show today, and it connected to a number of threads going on in my life right now. The story about the guy at the book signing was fabulous, and I appreciated the comment Brené made about knowing the truth when you encounter it. The conversation about men and vulnerability brought to mind an article I was impacted by many years ago, an interview with Diamond Approach teacher Alia Johnson about how women collude in war. It's more than 30 years old, so a bit dated today (nice to see that women aren't as beholden as they once were), but is primarily about how women collude in men's need to avoid weakness. "Other ways that I have seen myself colluding in realities that tend to produce the mentality that leads to war in men, has to do with the expectations I have about men. I think that men grow up with an expectation that they be strong and powerful and successful and that we as women want them to be that way, and that in western cultures the effect that that has on men is to alienate them from their own hearts and from their bodies and ultimately from the planet." It's well worth a read: http://www.context.org/iclib/ic04/johnson/
My impression is that this is the same as the #1, the most significant growth stage a person goes through as an adult, referred to in many traditions and practices--if a person ever does get that far, if they can! --To develop a sense of the self, a personal point-of-view, of being, separate from the 'ego'!
As a man with whom this wisdom resonates strongly, I too have found women are perhaps not ready for men embracing vulnerability. I keep wanting to bring this into my otherwise excellent relationship, but find her unwilling to look, to consider this way of relating to others.
I'd like to tell you about how your interview synced up with my life yesterday! I was at a yoga retreat with two friends, hearing about the concept of radical self care. Brene's name came up and we had a great discussion about vulnerability and how she is bringing us to a new place of understanding about our lives, and truly changing my relationships. My sister and I were driving home last night and your interview came on almost exactly as we got back into range of her local station.(Colorado Springs, CO) We arrived at her house before it was complete over. But then as I was driving home and into range of my local NPR station(Ft. Collins, CO) the interview came on again! It must have played an hour later in my area than it did in hers. OMG I GUESS I WAS SUPPOSED TO HEAR THIS LAST NIGHT. I just love it when I have Divine experiences like that. Thank you for all of the beautiful voices and ideas you bring to enrich my life!
About the Brene Brown discussion, I just wanted to say how much I loved the chemistry between the two of you, how much I like Brene's laugh, and also, that when you decide to live your real self, at least in my experience it is... well... very tiring. Exhausting. I can get stuff done, or I can be me and stuff - a lot of stuff, some of it important, won't get done. Just saying.
As a man, I was struck by the story at the book signing. That man said his family would not respond well if he fell off his “white horse”. I agree that this is a challenge; one that I have experienced! However I have come to understand that this challenge is a merely a justification for me to remain comfortable, a.k.a. not vulnerable. And just as important, it deprives my family of the opportunity to grow, seeing that their desire for the white-horse is also a justification to remain stagnant. Perhaps it is better to let the ones I love the most see that I am just as lost as they are and that we are all in this together.
Goethe said “tell a wise man or keep silent”. This came to mind as I considered the man’s complaint. Though Goethe’s intent may have been different, allowing my family to see my vulnerability may encourage them to grow in their own wisdom.
I heard Brene's interview on the sounds true podcast. Although I think its important to be vulnerable, I also think it important to be able to burry your emotions and fight through them. As a father of a 9year old boy who tends to let his emotions shut down his thinking....I realize how important it is that he fight through the pain and frustration to accomplish tasks. That said, it is also important that he understand when to be open and to let his guard down.