February 12, 2015
Helen Fisher —
Love and Sex and Attachment

In her TED talks that have been viewed by millions of people and the research she does for Match.com, Helen Fisher wields science as a sobering, if entertaining, lens on what feels like the most meaningful encounters of our lives. She is a leading anthropologist/explorer on the new frontier of seeing inside our brains when love and sex happen. And she reveals how we can take this knowledge as a form of power — to give conscious new meaning to the thrilling and sometimes treacherous human realms of love, sex, and marriage.

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is a Visiting Research Associate and member of the Center for Human Evolutionary Studies in the Department of Anthropology at Rutgers University. She is also the Chief Scientific Advisor to the Internet dating site Match.com. Her books include Anatomy of Love: A Natural History of Mating, Marriage, and Why We Stray and Why We Love: The Nature and Chemistry of Romantic Love.

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As part of a conversation with the Church of Ireland about the question of human sexuality, our special contributor confesses his "gay agenda": to love the gospels; to love repentance; to love words and courage and my partner; and to show love to each other on our great endeavor.

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In the Room with Helen Fisher

"Americans love romantic love. We just love romantic love. But we don't pay much attention to attachment."

Watch the 90-minute unedited interview with Helen Fisher, including fascinating insights from the biological anthropologist that we couldn’t fit into the radio hour: her sense of how arranged marriages create the conditions for love and romance to happen; and the nuance brain science would give to the term “animal attraction.”

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Women and Men and adoration. Your unedited version is providing me -- now in my wisdom years over 60 -- a re-visiting of my youthful ideals that I clung to in the Sixties and assumed were intrinsic to human nature.

We men can be fragile. Only in recent years have I been in touch with the young man I was when I made choices to stand in the military during the Vietnam War and ended up being so impacted that I never could slow down enough to be able to find a woman's love. Now I feel like an "Iceman" thawing out after being frozen in time only to discover that the world has warmed and changed and is more complex than I was expecting. Your interview with Helen Fisher is helping me to generate new glimpses of what might be possible for me as I "come out of the jungle of my memories" and re-form my social relationships.

It was powerful to hear such insights that you both gave about social support in what I think you might call the new village. I think that in the future I'll recall listening to this interview and agree that many woman and men are committing to being more resilient than we could have been before.

Your discussion reminded me of the film, "Forrest Gump." We're able to now look back while also feeling the integration that has woven itself deep into our collective memories. We can build our tomorrow out of what we have gathered into ourselves from around us. I'm convinced that this interview will continue to encourage me as I listen to others and move forward into the future that we are creating.

This was a thought provoking show. I have ordered one of Helen Fischer's books, The Anatomy of Love; however, I she and the interviewer did not deal with the thousands if not millions of Americans who have unhappy, unfulfilling marriages. Businesses such as Ashley Madison would not exist if there were so many happy marriages. Some people find their spouses to be unattractive and unappealing; some can't communicate with their spouses; some receive no affirmation or respect from their spouses; and some suffer all three. I know because I am one of the Americans who is unhappily married yet I cannot afford a divorce at this time.

Thank you for giving voice to many of us. I affirm your comment and know too many spouses in the same boat of "loveless marriages" maybe even awful marriages. It's tragic when divorce is impossible because of finances, cultural expectations, ailing health or religious roles. I ended mine last year and 24 hrs later my chronic sickness improved 50%. My Dr didn't know my marriage was making me emotional physically spiritually sick. It was the hardest thing I've done but glad it's over.

Ralph, Your comments were so powerful that I feel compelled to confirm that you were heard. I have so much hope for you in your process of reintegration. As you radiate kindness and understanding, it will be returned to you four fold. We need your wisdom and to learn from your willingness to be vulnerable. I know Vietnam vets who went on to marry and have children, yet remained "Icemen" --so much pain and heartbreak for all.

I got this idea from listening to Helen and Kristas' interview. You asked what a conversation between a theologian and Helen would sound like and I immediately knew that we would all be inspired by and learn something new by a conversation between James Finley@ contemplative way.org and you,Krista and Helen. He has a way of expressing himself that touches something deep within all of us and teaches us how to love. If you wanted to know more about Thomas Merton he's your guy. His recording with Sounds True on Christian Meditation I highly recommend and will give you the best knowledge on his experience of religion. Let me know if you become interested. I believe the idea that we as a world have to create a new religion from the wisdom teachings of all religions is brilliant and will revolutionize the world. Let's begin.They tried once before to organize all the worlds religions at the Worlds Fair held in Chicago in 1900. The Hegler Foundation in LaSalle, Il. has a lot of resources on the subject. Finley,Helen and you would be a great start to opening up the conversation on how a new world religion may heal the wounds that terrorism, greed and inequality etc. has had on our world. Or at least, where do we go from here and how can we do it together. It would be an experiment that could evolve false identifications into the true face of God and human beings. It could even save our Mother Earth. Thank you for your work. Every week I learn something new.

Please ask Helen,what is her understanding of men's desire for "public displays of affection"? I've been amazed at how often this appears in men's profiles on Match.com.

Or maybe some of you men could clue me in to the underlying dynamic here...

IFor me you spoke much too much during your interview with Helen Fisher. There were several time you both were speaking and one could not understand any of you.
I wanted you to post your *short* comment and then LISTEN. I'v never seen you do this interrupt this way before.

I agree. Krista is incredibly articulate and intelligent. I also understand the show is a conversation; however, as much as I like her observations, I often want Krista to listen more and allow her guests to speak more.

Hi, I was listening until I had to come into work--I am a United Methodist Pastor in Charlotte, but also working on my Ph.D. in Philosophy and Religion with a concentration in Women's Spirituality. I didn't get to finish listening to the science and religion part of the discussion about marriage. I wanted to say that although I understand the statement that assumes a theologian would be "threatened" by the biological aspects, given the perception overall of theologians, unless you limit yourself to the fundamentalist right wing conservative theologian, non of us would be threatened. Lots of conversations and cross-discipline research going on in the that area. Now, you can easily find a right wing conservative in this country and especially in the bible belt,who would give you the kind of conversation you may be anticipating and to which you alluded. However, if you would like to have a more ope-minded dialogue with a not at all conservative (how could I be? I'm a woman.), please contact me. This is very relevant to my own research as well. Oh and theologians are at various levels of education--I completed my Master of Divinity--a 96 degree program before serving as a pastor and now working on a Ph.D.

When Helen spoke of the "friends with benefits", casual sex culture of young people today she interpreted it as young people being cautious. She made assumptions that these young people know about contraception and how to protect themselves from disease. They don't: Since 2010 Gonorrhea is up 4% and Chlamydia is up 8%., the fastest growing STD is Human Papilloma Virus (HPV), 5.5 million people become infected each year. Herpes stays in the body without symptoms so many times people don’t realize they have it. That is why, I suspect, medicine has developed the vaccine for teens. If parents wish, they can have their children vaccinated at about 11 years old. The point is not everyone is using condoms because we still have millions of folks who get these diseases every year. The largest group of folks with STDs are 15-24 year olds; 70% of Gonorrhea cases and 62% of Chlamydia cases.

World embracing religions have provided teachings that guide humanity along a safe path. They all teach the importance of controlling our desires. Yes we all have physical desire but marriage is the place to express it. The fact that in the West our marriages don't last long on average isn't a condemnation of marriage it's a condemnation of us as individuals, don't you think?

Helen's finding that the first stage of human attraction is akin to madness, loss of reason etc.is also called limerence (coined by psychologist Dorothy Tennov). It seems to me this is exactly the stage where sex is to be avoided because it only further binds one person to another and prevents the two from really knowing another person as Helen suggests young people are attempting to do. Limerence is blinding young people at a point where they really need their eyes wide open.

Well said.

Instead of being against something, how about being FOR sex education. Safe sex to reduce disease and unwanted pregnancy while increasing love. Sounds better all the way around.

I have no words to adequately describe how impactful and important this discussion is. I hear from a lot of drama-soaked youth about expectations of life-long loneliness. From now on I will be sending them this link.

Thank you for depressing me even further on this Valentine's Day weekend.

I've never listened to this program before, but I'm glad I tuned in (not being able to sleep any later because of the howling New England winter wind this morning). Intriguing perspectives and articulate comments by both Ms. Fisher and Ms. Tippett. However, I was somewhat surprised that no mention was made of gay/lesbian/transgender relationships (unless I missed it in the first 15 minutes, or unless something is in the unedited 90 minute version, which I haven't heard yet). If attraction, love, and maintenance are difficult for heterosexual couples, imagine the obstacles for non-mainstream people.

My wife & I have been married 46 years and remain happy, though we have had our struggles. Both of us see disagreement as something to work out not quit over. We dated for a year and became good friends first, enjoying art, sports, and literature together and during our hardest times, our friendship held us together. We married at 18 and at 65, we are actively able to play with the youngest8-11, and have adult relationships with the oldest having a lot in common. We are longstanding Tibetan, Kagyu lineage, Buddhists, and the compassion which grows fro deep meditation allows us to be humble, helpful, empathic, and forgiving, as demonstrated by Richard Davidson Phd & others. Earthly love is not attachment but rejoices when our partners enjoy themselves whether alone or with others. When I worked long hours as an MD, I loved to hear about my wife's and children's exploits. I have been impotent 14 years due to invasive prostate cancer, now in remission, but my wife remains deeply devoted, protecting & loving me fiercely.( My cancer is in remission.)My 3 children and 8 children have supported me through 3 cancer surgeries, 8 spine, 4 brain, and an overall 22 surgeries, mercury toxicity, Hypertension, etc.. All our lives, my wife and I have given of ourselves, and,though expecting of nothing, we have received tenfold. Generosity is rightly the first of the six Paramitas of Kagyu Buddhism

This cannot be brief:
Helen Fisher, (from my perch as a "eleven times immigrant" and a twice married male), has embraced and confirmed many of my opines that have been assembled and rigorously tested during my very curt and comprehensible life-span of almost three score plus fifteen years.

Ms Fisher has put her key squarely into the historical and meta-physical lock that often drives the greater portion of human bonding for the sake of emotional propagation, aggression and self satisfaction.

Of course, as Homo sapiens, we have been very able to design into this formula of genetic drive, an incidence of regional structuralism, which embraces a level of influence, discipline and monetary gain.

The formulation of "recorded marriage" became not only a very appreciable method by which certain designed behaviors became a part of cultural and economic legislation, but also a measuring stick of what might be judged as "good" or "bad'.

Ms Fisher points out that this social art form has been evolving for millions of years and seems to be without end for as long as our species may survive.

On that point alone, we can look into the night sky and seek out M51, or another distant cousin galaxy, and just wonder upon what may be our acceptance of how we shall govern our genetic linkages during the millennium yet to come.

Might there be another species "out there" wondering upon the same possibility?

Scary at best.
Thrilling at the least !

During our immeasurably short and recent twenty centuries, our social evolution has raced ahead of the recorded history set down during the previous forty thousand and more years!

Females and males have engineered new influence as to just how we look upon and accept the behavior of social groups or, for a brief time yet to come, our "nations".

Today I argue that we no longer have these original nations. In place we have territories that embrace certain cultural views and laws that are not always in link-step with any neighboring entity of an organized populated area.

That which appears to not have been altered in application, is "religion", belief, mysticism, faith etc. based upon the needs and beliefs of regional communities.

Religion or belief and conjured faith in my view, seem to have been, and are today a convenient and easily administrated method by which large groups of humans have….
..been brought into some measure of accountability while providing an economic base by which any given covenant may perpetuate its existence.

Until today, organizations of many flags conjure influence upon social behavior throughout regions and continents, while applying some form of "tax" upon those persons of faith.

After all, any religion must express some level of commerce or perish.

Over time, expansion, economics, emigration, religion, wars, and famine have been the principal drivers of cultural reform that in the outcome have brought a new and different meaning to the regulation of the societal practices that embrace our bonding, or "loving" ambitions and behavior.

Again, Ms Fisher, and others of such well researched ilk, have commented that our self-driven interpretation of our thinking and emotional behavior borders upon temporary insanity when we become afflicted with the hormonal driven status of "falling and initially being in love".

(As Ms Krista Tippet succinctly brings to the fore: "On being").

My bent of this verbiage is simply that we are changing our ways of juxtaposing love, but not our need to love another, and be loved in return; while , and I urge caution, no one person is able to bring happiness to another. Happiness is self interpreted and self endowed based upon the appreciation of and by another Being who displays caring affection and protection.

I offer that the current phenomenon referred to as "feeling good" is not love.

I thank you Ms Fisher.

For an atheist it seemed contradictory for Helen to say there is a tremendous union between the intellectual, spiritual, and biological..."they work together as a team." No doubt some will split spiritual apart from religious, but they are the same in believing in spirits/gods. So did Helen acquiesce to the theme of the show, to Krista's leanings? What defines spiritual for Helen?
Also was disappointed to not hear any advice for newly married couples.

Krista, I just finished listening to your interview with Helen Fisher. I was surprised by one of your comments. You said the world has so many amazing women but not so many amazing men. Are you revealing something about your true feelings to men or something else? A rather disappointing comment that I do not agree with. Do you believe this to be the truth?

Ted from South Haven, Mn

Has Dr. Fisher done any studies of LBGT love?

Very hetero-focused.

I agree --i'm stunned by the hetero focus, and the ignorance or obfuscation of the role of patriarchy and capitalism in the forming of hetero romance. I agree with the other commentator who also noted the ignorance re: the actual *lack* of knowledge of contraception and STDs among young people and then to add, the double standards which lock girls into subordinate roles--burdened by lack of sex education and obligations to sexually perform for the male all at once, and held responsible for pregnancy--called sluts etc...

A "new" old-fashioned kind of community has taken root all over the world. Cohousing, small scale village-like neighborhoods made up of privately owned homes, seeks to restore that old-fashioned sense of belonging. Single parents and those single folks wanting to become parents, FLOCK to them because they offer extended support beyond the four walls of one's home. Adoption agencies love cohousing communities for the same reason: a child has many adults watching and interacting w/ him/her. For seniors it means staying independent and interdependent far longer than on one's own. Cohousing helps w/ marriages and other unions because each partner can easily find their needs met OUTSIDE the marriage. You're an extravert and your partner is an intovert? O no problem! He/she has all the privacy wanted and you can schmooze until the cows come home. We need more models like cohousing to support and foster an array of relationships emerging in society today.

Isn't Krista married?

This is certainly an interesting topic and discussion you and Helen are having. One thing you commented on was the notion that we here in the U.S. believe that our love stories end on happy street. In the actual way we end our love stories and movies is in a happy, excited way...but we are rarely ever left thinking that this 'ending' is really only the beginning! It perhaps takes this strong beginning to begin the reality of the day to day relationship that may or may not turn into a deeper more complete love experience.

Not sure what we are trying to figure out here, at least, that we did not already know. Yep, when sex is involved, it changes the relationship.Does not take any brain mapping to figure that one out. Regarding the knowledge of today's youth on the subject of birth control and disease, that seems to have been addressed in another post. Living together before marriage? Yeah, we have all become a bit more accepting of things nowadays.Still, I am not so sure that it bodes well for either party involved. I have seen it go both ways, good and bad, so not to sure about that one.Many well intentioned marriages don't make it, but so many factors there, I don't think it can be boiled down to co-habitation. I was glad to hear that Ms. Fisher was attending church again. Even if it was just to hear the gospel music, sounds like the message is appealing to her too. I think that some of the answers we are seeking with science are really already "figured out" for us.We just need to know where to look. The conversation is great, but I am a fan of an equal amount of comtemplation time. The voices are we listen to make a big difference. We do we make some things so much more complicated than thay need to be? I am not saying it is always easy, but we sure can over-think it too.

I disagree with people who criticized Krista as interrupting. I think in her own right Krista is a compelling thinker and what she contributes to the discussions with her guests is invaluable. I was actually annoyed with Helen talking over Krista. And although I've read several of her books and love her mind, this is the second time I've heard her talk (the first was her TED talk) and I found her to be a little overbearing.

I like what Marianne Williamson says about the falling in love syndrome that so many have judged as temporary insanity. Marianne says that's reality, then after a year or two, unreality sets in. The unreality of seeing faults in the other.

Bruce Lipton also talks about the "being in love" time as a time when a person is living in the present moment and his/her behavior is coming from their conscious mind. When that phase wears down it is because they are starting to live in the past and future. Because their mind is no longer in the present, their behavior reverts to unconscious conditioning which was downloaded in early childhood. They start acting in ways that their partner has not seen before and often doesn't like, so the partner loses his/her mind to resentment and blaming/shaming.

I hope that marriage evolves into something that is based on more wisdom in the future rather than on the taboos and whims of culture that it's based on now.

What a pleasure to listen to a couple of intelligent, attractive women near my age discuss the difficultys of being single, and finding companionship. I have admired Krista's delicate style of interview for years now. She has introduced me to many great thinkers. Thank You Krista and Helen.

This interview was interesting. I'd like to know how Helen Fisher defines love. For me the closest the conversation got to my understanding of love was when Krista expressed a desire to shift from a focus on being loved, to loving others. I believe this is the principle confusion around the concept of love. When we discuss love we typically talk about our need to be loved, which is self-focused in nature. But love itself has the other in view, and seeks to fulfill and support that other. I was surprised that Helen seemed to move away from this in the interview. It seems to me that her research isn't so much on love as it is on passion.

I made the same observation. It seemed the kind of love that Helen was discussing could almost come under the category of addiction if an individual continued in a pattern like that. My life changed dramatically when I went from "what's in it for me" to "how can I love/serve this person?" It was a very deliberate decision I made and there was nothing really noble about it. One day I simply woke up and realized my love life wasn't working. I have a lot more to say on the topic. Including where spirituality fits in to this picture. It is also interesting to me that Helen firmly disavowed this for herself. I was planning on writing quite a bit on this in response but here for now is my reply. By the way.... In an interview on Ted Radio, Helen presented four ways humans connect romantically - each preferring one over the other. Her research informed the site chemistry.com Seemed very much on point!

I love Helen Fisher ~ she's delightful! I entered into my second marriage at 53 (my husband's 3rd marriage). I was married 26 years the first time. At 60, I'm very happy with my husband and our life. I wanted to be married. It's where I do my best work, my greatest growth. My husband and I have been together for 11+ years. We're very compatible and enjoy each others company. We're great friends and lovers. I waited to date for a year after my divorce. When I met my 2nd husband I told him I would not sleep with him if/until we decide we want a long term commitment. My husband tells everyone that this is the best thing I could have done for our relationship but no one ever listens to us. People want instant gratification. Oftentimes one or both are insecure so see sex as a 'glue' to stick someone to you artificially. I've encouraged my son, now 19, to make choices based on principles. I had a list of 'must-haves' and narrowed it down to my top 5 or 7. My current husband fit nearly all 26 ; )

I thought the conversation about people wsiting longer to get married being intentional and advantageous was a little overly optimistic. While those folks might finally make good choices and "settle down" with a marriage partner, I sense more will keep avoiding commitments and keep seeking the idealized partner. I have two sons in college and the whole dating scene is non-existent and they long to find and have meaningful relationships come along with a girlfriend. I think something less healthy is happening as so many are lonely but don't know how to get into and establish long-term relationships. I feel concerned.

It is stunning and so very disturbing that the conversations during On Being, in the search for living a better life, infrequently mentions, discusses or considers living in the essence and practice of the following ideas: (1) frequently invoking great spirit(s), higher power(s), god(s), goddess(es), etc.) only for guidance in daily and life decisions not personally-desired outcomes, objects and occurrences; (2) that knowledge-based decision making is preferable to opinion-based decision making, and actually preferable to acting on emotions or opinion; (3) not be punitive in personal relationships (we all make mistakes and can learn from them); (4) be democratic in thought and action [we are different but equal!!] and (5) prudent financial principles over greed. As a way of living, the tenets above produce opportunities to live and practice humility, resolving conflict with no "losers" and love in all of its forms. They do not eliminate strife, death, pain or sadness, but rather provide an alternative to self-righteousness, resentments and ill-conceived control over other people whilst we try to live well. "Gratitude is the antidote to resentment." As citizens on the planet, we want more than we'll ever need and usually to satisfy some dismal sense of lack or fear of something that rarely occurs. Where we have been given the gifts of this abundant planet, we conquer, subjugate and mistreat all of its components, organic, inorganic, living or not. As humans, we have a long journey to be in sync with nature as other living carbon-based units. I would like to hear meaningful dialogue, not self-serving justifications of ideas and policies that separate us from nature and each other.

The Destination
in Flames

Only slowly

did we see


each others clothes



so eagerly believed



how many daily gigs

the trillion pixel image


on the floor

before our own eyes

no longer

the other

but all





the nearer


the breath

the soul's burning

the way


Helen talked about how she could have fallen in love but because she knows the power of love, chose not to go there.
I wonder whether it is worth staying in a relatively decent attached relationship where neither person is in love with the other, for the sake of belonging. It would be nice to be in love, but should I be grateful that my husband is a friend and it may be better than being alone the rest of my life. Is that as good as it gets? Or do I risk leaving an entire family system because I long to be "in love".

Another thought provoking show! And...I was disappointed not to learn more about LGBTQ love and how it fits into this research.

This conversation reminded me of Elizabeth Gilbert's thoughtful work on marriage. But, weeks later, what sits with me is Fisher's assumption that young people are informed about contraception methods.Availability does not equate access, understanding, or use. Compared to the civic conversation series, this episode was facile; entertaining and insightful but neither broad nor deep.

As a man in my late 50s, having experienced two marriages and two divorces, I found Krista and Helen's exchange both comforting and hopeful. Rather than being offended at Krista's observations of a possible dearth of intelligent, insightful, eligible male partners, I am encouraged at both gender's growing hesitancy to settle for less. I also noticed the lack of LGBTQ inclusion... perhaps an interview with someone qualified to discuss love, society, and cultural trends from that perspective might be forthcoming? I love Krista's interviews with atheists. Although I wouldn't label myself that way, I rarely fail to be delighted by how our experiences, hopes and beliefs often transcend whatever labels we lash to ourselves.

Startling learning experience. Married 52 years, two professionals only periodically on same continent, now protecting each other. Went through at least three renegotiating the marriage cycles. We have "survived" and its worth it but find myself looking at my children and grandchildren's relationships. So many comments have been reflected in my life. Thank you

This interview was incredible. More like this please - on relationships!!!!

This was an excellent interview. I love listening to Helen Fisher speak about romantic love. Her study explains so much about why we can have such complicated relationships in our lifetime. As she said at the end of her interview, knowing these facts can help you better navigate through the romantic and other loving relationships you may encounter through the years. Life can be quite the ride. At least it has been for me. If I could talk to anyone on this planet at the moment it would be Helen Fisher. Your interview felt very much like an intimate talk with her. It was by far one of the best interviews I have ever seen and as others mentioned I didn't find you talked to much. I found your questions very to be very thoughtful and deep.

I only recently discovered the On Being website and podcasts here down under in North Queensland Australia. I have enjoyed the discovery immensely. As I have my weekend exercise (its quite a strenuous walk up a steep hill which takes about 2 hours ) I have found my self in another world transported by the podcasts oblivious to the fatigue of my hard walk. Thank you!

I was inspired to reflect through this forum by the interview with Helen Fisher because it brought to the surface so many issues I have pondered myself in coming to terms with relationships, love and attachment in my life. It did not provide me with all the answers but Helen gives me confidence that I am not alone in dealing with these issues. I relate to the comments about how our society is seemingly shedding over a short space of time some 10000 years of cultural evolution in regard to expectations and practices for marriage and relationships. This is a big shake up for society. But at the personal level my own life has been about shedding many of the cultural expectations and practices which I was taught and learnt in regard to myself and relationships. And many of these were a deep part of my upbringing and education and therefore tied up closely with my emotional and personal make up. So these changes in society have for me run together with deep personal and emotional shifts at a personal level - something I find at times confronting and unsettling but overall liberatng if you keep letting go. In the process I found one risks losing and sometimes does lose family and friendship ties because of the growing gap in your outlook and sense of being in the world.

The concept of cheating is still a subject that few people actually want to address, choosing instead to place blame on it being a one off thing or a moment of weakness. I would love to see that topic delved into in more detail by actual men who don't feel a need to hide their true thoughts so they will be forgiven by current or past lovers. "I'm sorry" usually comes without a true understanding and to repeat what a young man told me "I wasn't really sorry for doing it, I was sorry for hurting her" this is a root cause of why marriages and relationships don't last, no one wants to seek the truth, just deal with how not to do it again.

A friend of mine summarized what he got from Dr. Fisher's talks this way: When people become intoxicated on alcohol, we say they are "drunk." When people become intoxicated on marijuana, we say they're "high." When people become intoxicated on LSD, we say they're "tripping." And when people become intoxicated on a mixture of oxytocin and dopamine, we say they're "in love." For some this steals the romance away from love, but for me it demystifies it and in the process enables me to enjoy it responsibly -- just like alcohol. I find comfort in the science of love, and feel a sense of release from the ambiguity and uncertainty of the conventional poetic, supernatural and superstitious paradigms. Thank you for the work you do, Dr. Fisher!